ABODO Showroom Webinar

[Shane Clarke] All right, shall we kick it off, eh? Thanks to the panellists for joining early this morning, a bit of our practise run through. Good morning to all of you that have joined, great to see you all here. Fantastic numbers, it's quite humbling to be honest. If we were having this presentation in a hall, Jacinda wouldn't allow it, it would be over the COVID-19 rules, so thanks to the technology of Zoom, it's fantastic. All right, so my name's Shane Clark, I'm the General Manager of Nuralite, and today we're going to take an in-depth look at a unique high-performance building enclosure built in the Cadrona Valley in Central Otago. We're going to aim for around about 30 minutes, it's entirely up to the participants and what questions they ask. We're all here, so hopefully we can, you know, the wealth of knowledge is here. So I've obviously got a panel of people here in front of me today. I've got Daniel Gudsell, the Managing Director of Abodo New Zealand, who was heavily involved in the material selections, also just happens to be the client. Also have award-winning architect Mr Justin Wright, and Director of Assembly Architects. And then finally we've got Mike Skilton, our National Sales Manager for Nuralite Waterproofing, who's contributed to the thermal and weatherproof enclosure of this particular project. So normally when we do a presentation with a group of architects, we're typically judged on our morning tea. Obviously with the invention of COVID-19, we're unable to do that. So what we will do is we'll contribute $10 per attendee towards an organisation that's close to our hearts called Habitat for Humanity. So Habitat's mission is to bring people together to build homes and communities and hope. So their philosophy is a hand up, not a hand out, and they look forward to making positive changes that are long lasting. So simply by attending this morning, people, you've made the world a better place. Congratulations. The last few minutes of the webinar, once we've run through the panel, we'll turn into a bit of a Q&A session. Just use the Q&A function down the bottom of the menu bar there and we'll go through them as good as we can. Now if we do miss some of the questions, what we will do is we'll actually send out all the Q&A with a follow up email, so don't feel like you've been left out. So just before we kick off, I'm just going to run a quick poll from your perspective on where you sit with insulation basically. As a designer, building owner, building inhabitant, I'm quite keen to get an idea on what your thoughts are on building insulation, but we've certainly got ours, that's for sure. Look at those, looks great. And obviously all the attendees will send out their results of this poll too, so you can sort of see where everyone sits. So all our panellists and contributors today are all looking at innovative ways to build New Zealand better, so I hope you enjoyed today's session. I'll start off with Daniel. Hey Daniel, welcome. [Daniel Gudsell] Hi Shane. [Shane Clarke] Alright, so Cadrona is a particularly harsh climate, both hot and cold. Sorry, let's throw up the slides here. [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, I mean, it's a tough environment. It's one of the, I think it's the highest altitude public road in the country. A lot of people recognise it when they go skiing. [Shane Clarke] So it's a really harsh climate and we obviously all know that. So what was the key driver to using a rain screen type structure for a roof and a wall? [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really our idea to be honest. Justin and the team at Assembly put it forward to us and when we thought about it, we thought actually this is a perfect way to show performance of our timber. Obviously putting wood on the roof like that really means that it's going to capture a lot of extra UV, a lot of extra weather and it's a great way to prove the product performs even in an environment like Cadrona. [Shane Clarke] So I mean, obviously the timber, you've developed a way for the timber to handle the conditions and what sort of implications does this have with sort of ongoing maintenance going forward? [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, look, firstly the timber itself has got to be highly stable to span those sorts of distances and obviously take the weather. So the timber we use is originally New Zealand radiata pine. It goes through a two stage process. The first step is we thermally heat it up and then we thermally modify the wood, which gives it that brown natural colour. It gives it stability and durability. And the second step we do is we actually grain orientate it. So we come up with a laminated vertical grain and you can see that in the image on the left hand side there. You've got stripes of grain and what that does is further stabilise the timber and reduce things like cracking when it's weathering. So the first step for getting a good low maintenance facade is actually having a very stable timber. In terms of the finishes, we selected for the exterior, we selected a product called CU, which is a surface coating we import from Sweden. And unlike most coatings, it doesn't, it's not a pigmented coating. Pigmented coatings tend to obviously pigment the surface, but they are brayed back pretty quickly when they're exposed to heavy weather. Whereas the CU system is a surface based silicate, so it creates a surface film on the outside of the wood and that's where we get that even silver colour. Now that silver colour is expected to last, the system is expected to last around seven to eight years. Put another coat of the system on seven to eight years, which is just one maintenance coat and then we'll get another 10 years plus out of it. So certainly the system is going to be put under the acid test in this particular environment. [Shane Clarke] And you need any special equipment to put that sort of coating on or is it sort of something? [Daniel Gudsell] Well we delivered it factory coated, so we factory coated it at Abodo and sent it to site. It can be hand applied, I mean you could you could apply it with a brush, but you'd be a maniac if you tried to do that with 3,000 linear metres of 65 by 25 rain screen. Builders are good, but even they weren't up for that challenge. So we factory coated and sent it down. So it's a three coat system, we put it, we coat it in the factory and this goes up without any further application of site coatings. [Shane Clarke] Bring back memories of a picket fence my parents used to have. So as the client, what was really important to you when selecting the builder? [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, the builder was pretty critical. I mean you can see the building is fully exposed in the inside, so rather than gibbing up all those studs, the detail that the architects came up with was reminiscent of a central Otago barn. And of course it's highly complicated and we'll learn about the system behind that, but what it does mean for the builders is that there's no room for error and any screw that's gone the wrong way is blatantly obvious in this structure. We're from Auckland, so we didn't have a lot of contacts for construction in central Otago, but Dustin and the team at Assembly put us in touch with Dunlop Builders and they had a pretty good reputation and we asked around and got some good feedback on Dunlop and we just went with it. We didn't tender it out, we just went with the best recommendation and I'm really pleased with the result that they got. The guy on site doing a lot of the handyman craftsmanship is a boat builder, he is a joiner and just some of the things this guy could do with wood was mind-bending and the result, if you actually get the chance to come down and have a look, it's open, the site's open, if you come down and have a look you'll see what I'm talking about. [Shane Clarke] Yeah, I mean the images don't really do it justice, I mean that's quite impressive the craftsmanship that's gone into that, that's for sure. So you mentioned that it's open, when does that open? [Daniel Gudsell] Well it's currently open, of course we've got these COVID guidelines to deal with and we're only allowed four or five people in the area at a time, but we have got someone permanently based down there at Cadrona, one of the locals, so he's lined up to show people through. So if there are people that want to go and have a look at it and they are in central Otago or they're passing through or they're going skiing, by all means pop in and have a look, you can drop me an email at daniel.gudsell@abodo.co.nz and I'll organise a screen for you. [Shane Clarke] Have you got the address or what's the best way to find it? [Daniel Gudsell] I remember the street name off the top of my head, but if you know where the Cadrona pub is, it's about two lots before that, getting towards Wanaka. [Shane Clarke] No idea where it's at. [Daniel Gudsell] Don't get waylaid at the pub, just make sure you do stop in at the photo cabin. [Shane Clarke] All right, well speaking of locals, I was talking to Justin a little bit earlier and he showed us a camera shot out the window and he's got this white stuff all over the grass down there. Wow. All right, so Justin was the architect and designer for this particular project. Justin, do you want to tell us about some of the specifics of the site and how you took the client's brief into consideration? [Justin Wright] Yeah, sure. So Dan came to us to talk about building a two programme, so it was going to be a bit of a guest house plus a product show building for the Abodo product. We were familiar with Abodo and we'd chatted with Dan on some projects that went down in Wanaka, so we kind of had a formative relationship through understanding the product and those scenarios. In terms of the context of the site, Cadrona's got a very strong design guide for the town itself, so it's trying to maintain a certain aesthetic to it. And this form that's there, this very simple gable shed form is one that's kind of ingrained into this environment, which is coming from the old days of the miners cottages. So it's a specific gable in size and it's kind of a common thing that you see come through this space. So this site is actually quite a large site. There's more space behind this building for further development, but there's a couple of sight lines that when you're driving into town from either way, this way or that way, you kind of saw this corner of the site. So we wanted to put it close to the site as a showroom. We went through, you know, we thought of it as a place to showcase all the product, and so we talked through Dan, where are all the places that we could do the timber, and we just looked at everything that we could use it for. [Shane Clarke] Wow. So exposing the internal structure and using it as a visual feature would have raised a few challenges, I'd imagine. Tell us about your experience with this. [Justin Wright] Yeah, so look, that was one of the early questions that we asked, is does it have a structural rating? So there's not a lot of exposed timbers that do have some type of structural rating to them. So cedars and totaras and all those they used to don't. So the lamination of this brings it up to a structural rating of G8, which is equivalent to all standard timber structure. So we said, well, why don't we, you know, let's use it structurally to expose the studs, expose the rafters. So in this, you can see in here, we really put it to its test, that end stud and that gable is 5.4 metres tall. And you'll notice that there's no dwangs, so there's nothing to restrain it from twisting either side. And, you know, we're in a very dry environment, which is typically known to make timber come in and change its shape. And so the, you know, the testament to actually the ability of the product is that straightness. It was the builders that pointed that out and said, look how straight it is. So yeah, you know, when you're exposing all this stuff, you've got your studs, that's the structure, you've got the lining that's there and you need the insulation and there's just nowhere to hide anything. So everything in this building down to the minute detail of every wire and every kind of pipe and everything needed to be considered to make sure that stuff goes through. So very simple building, extremely detailed, huge amount of detail. [Shane Clarke] That's fantastic. So we're starting to see more and more rain screen type constructions being considered. What are some of the benefits and design challenges that you've got with this type of structure? [Justin Wright] Yeah, so look, architects love rain screens because it's really adding a decorative layer to the outside skin of the building, which is not the primary means of your weather tightness. It's kind of a visual thing. It does contribute to the weather tightness. It gives you a third layer of protection to the main structure. So in this, you can see just how pure and clean we were able to get that form just to abstract it right down to being just the material and just the material exposed. There's no flashings above windows. There's no flashings at the ridge lines. It's just really, you know, the material presented. So it gives you the ability that, as you can see in this, where we've got the light coming through where the windows are in behind. So the light coming through, which is beautiful from the inside from a filtered light as well. So yeah, so rain screens give you another kind of design freedom that's there. So because it's on the outside, there's some detailing things that you need to do to make sure that you understand how you can maintain the primary cladding system in behind. And then those interfaces between those components as to how they work. [Shane Clarke] That looks very slick, that's for sure. What were some of the key junctions, I guess, around detailing particular sections of the building and how difficult was it to achieve building compliance? [Justin Wright] Well, this is pretty much the kind of primary envelope detail cross section from inside to out. So you can see there the stud on the inside, the exposed bulk and panelling, and then there's a structural bracing layer. And then essentially from there, it's the Nuralite warm roof system. We work with you guys quite closely around how we get a batten fixing on the outside to make that work. And then a suspended rain screen that sits on the outside of that. So from a compliance perspective, it's actually not too, it wasn't too difficult to kind of prove compliance. We had a CodeMark system being the warm roof system. And so from Council's perspective, seeing these layers building up were pretty easy. The key thing though, as you can see there, is a big stainless steel screw that goes from the outside through the batten all the way into the structure on the inside. Now, if you think about the builder putting that together, all he's seeing is a giant mass of insulation sheet and he needed to, if that screw didn't go through and hit the centre of the stud, it was going to stick out on the inside. So that was part of the discussion with Daniel about the builders and who we were going to use and the precision and craft of what this building was a key part. So the compliance was pretty straightforward in terms of the system, the weather. It's very clear where the weather, where the insulation and where the structure is. [Shane Clarke] Nice and tidy. There's some finishing shots there. [Justin Wright] Yeah, it's just, it's a great space. Yeah, it looks great. [Shane Clarke] Cool, thanks for that Justin. We'll just, we'll flick on to Mike now. So Mike, as I said earlier, is the National Sales Manager for Nuralite and he's been heavily involved with this project. I guess, can we call you a local? I mean, you go down their skiing often enough, does that count? [Mike Skilton] Not local enough, unfortunately. I'd like to spend a wee bit more time down there and, but certainly they're pushing the boundaries in the region in terms of design and it's just a beautiful place to be. So I really recommend everybody after COVID-19 comes down and has a look. [Shane Clarke] Nice one. Hey Mike, why does insulation on the outside of a structure, why does that make sense? [Mike Skilton] Yeah, well Shane, I think the first bit is that we were really excited to be involved with this project, to be asked and the, you know, Marcus and Justin and the team at Assembly in conjunction with Abodo were looking to push the boundaries. They were looking to showcase beautiful New Zealand timbers in a spectacular part of New Zealand. Our job was really to make sure that we maximise the warmth of the building and pretty much to make sure it didn't leak. It was an essential part of making sure that this was going to work for them in conjunction with the rain screen. Nuralite as a company has been pretty much making sure that structures don't leak for over 50 years, so I think it was a good fit. The boys talked about pairing of Dunlop builders and getting the, you know, the integrity of the building done properly with craftsmen people. We recommended that the team, Andrew and the team at Watertight Systems were the waterproofers on that, and they've been an expert in high performance builders, so we were also able to make some recommendations around the craftsmanship for the building, and I think that that was really important. OK, so we had the confidence in the supply of the systems that also came from one supplier, and I think there's many examples of companies that bring in unproven systems and, you know, they're pretty much untested. We're the only lucky we have a one system company that supplies us. They're internationally tested and proven, so we had a lot of confidence when we were working around some of the complexities of this building. So basically to answer your question in regards to why did it make installation on the outside of the structure? Well, I think the first thing was, as shown and demonstrated, is that we had no room to insulate on the inside of the buildings, and this is traditionally what happens in a New Zealand construction process. So we had to think outside the square, and we also had to look at what other companies were doing in other countries. In North America and in Europe, this is pretty much the way that they insulate their buildings. So we wanted to make sure that the internal timber was an important feature, and by putting the insulation on the outside of the building, we were able to move the dew point, which was really an important feature, and what that did was it also took the condensation point to the outside of the building. So wrapping that building in insulation board, and we use a PIR, a world-class quality PIR board, we're able to put that on the outside of the building. There were construction challenges around making sure the ping lines were right, so the screws went in dead centre, as Justin was pointing out. The other aspect of that is that you get the full R value of the insulation. With timber frame walls, you can lose up to 15 percent in heat loss, because insulation is traditionally put between the rafters and between the studs, and with insulation fully encapsulating the outside of the building, that eliminates that heat leak. It also becomes a moisture barrier as well. So yeah, that's the basis of why we put insulation on the outside of the structure. It does make good sense. [Shane Clarke] So going to the next layer in the sandwich, if you like, the membrane selection was interesting, being double layer, seemed a bit over the top. Why was this sort of build up selected? [Mike Skilton] Yeah, well, the thinking behind it is it had to be built and protected to a high level of degree. It's a challenging environment there, and we wanted to make sure that we had a system that was going to stand the test of time and stand the test of the longevity of the build. So we took learnings from our warm roof system, and traditionally we've been a flat roofing company, but we've moved more and more into encapsulating all of the buildings on the outside, particularly with insulation, because we want to do that. But we also took our learnings from our warm roof systems, which we've been working in the New Zealand market for over 16 years with, and continue that system down the vertical surfaces of the building. So what we did was we incorporated our two-layer torch-on system. We used a peel and stick base over the insulation boards. We put a vapour barrier on the inside and the wall build up, and basically what that did was it just fully wrapped and encapsulated the building to ensure that the rain screen, when that was installed on the outside, was going to be completely waterproof and completely leak-proof as well. We had also some considerations around the capping sheet that we put on that had to be UV stable, and it had to be able to stand the test of time. So we incorporated that two-layer system to make sure that it was going to work in conjunction with the internal structure and the external rain screen. [Shane Clarke] So that final membrane layer is pretty low maintenance then? [Mike Skilton] Yeah, we wouldn't expect that there would be any maintenance on that, particularly on the waterproofing element of the structure. It would have to, you know, have some sort of mechanical damage, external mechanical damage for that to happen. [Shane Clarke] So traditionally in New Zealand we've had it sort of beaten into us that all our walls need to breathe, to get rid of moisture, you know, building papers and things like that. Mike, does this wall breathe? [Mike Skilton] In essence no. We really took our guidance from our warmer systems, employing it, you know, in the full envelope of the building. We wanted to eliminate thermal bridging, you know, that was really important, and this wall build-up as demonstrated eliminates that. So in essence you're creating a vapour and moisture barrier. Where typically this happens, where you get moisture and vapour build-up on the inside, your dew point is obviously in the inside because your warm air is meeting your cold air on the inside of the structure. That's in a traditional New Zealand build. These happen around junctions, around windows, skylights, etc, and it just really seems senseless to heat your building only for that to leak out. So we're looking to eliminate condensation. And Justin, just to bring you in on this, you had some thoughts in this area as well. [Justin Wright] Sorry, I was muted there for a second. Yeah, so this environment is really different to the rest of New Zealand. So we moved down from Wellington seven or eight years ago, and we've learned a lot since we've got down here. And into the moisture management, heating, and it all goes hand in hand into how these things work. So there's a lot of people doing passive house design down here, where they're actually able to get their houses down to very, very low energy usage. We've been, we're not certified passive, but we kind of understand the principles of what it's doing. So certainly I agree with what you're saying around getting an envelope of insulation around the whole outside and stopping the cold bridging to get stuck from one side to the other. But more so in terms of understanding that what the warm roof system is doing and how it's doing it. We've seen down here, since we've been doing alterations, we've seen roofs, traditionally built flat roof systems, which are less than 10 years old. And what happens is that you have hot moist, it's warm air inside, and that can hold more moisture. And the vapour that's in that air can move through the building envelope. So traditionally built gib ceiling lines, flat roof, for example, gib ceilings, structure, then plywood on the outside with your bats on the inside. That moist air can get past the bats and get up and it will hit the plywood, which is frozen overnight at negative 10 degrees. And it literally ice up overnight. And then it will, over time, the sun comes up and it melts down. So we've seen in worse examples where it was a bathroom, literally all the bolt fixings of the trim around the outside had moisture rolling over it and was rusting out. And if somebody stood on that roof in 10 years, it would flood out. So what the warm roof system is doing, and if you want to go back to that detail, I can kind of show those components as to where that is and the kind of, as to the critical parts for us and what we're looking at as to how that stuff is done, is that, yeah, here we go. So on the green dotted line, the vapour barrier, so what's happening in that, we've got the insulation, which is the gap between the really cold air outside and the nice warm air on the inside. So that warm air with the moisture in it, that gets stopped at that green line, which is warm. There's no point that it can be cooled down and condensate and form as a moisture problem. That's what that's doing. So that stops that getting through there. So when you do these things and you've got a really tight air sealed house, you have to have a system that deals with the moisture management as well. So it moves it from being the old, you know, most places and, you know, to be fair, Auckland power bills is not that much because it doesn't take much to heat it up. So you just keep your windows cracked and air flows through the house. Down here in this building, there is a passive ventilation, high energy transfer ventilation system that goes into the house. So, you know, our house, we built this, not with this type of system, but we did, we built the house that we're in. It's got a double layer system of insulation. It's got a vapour check on the inside and a tello wrap. And we, our house is a similar size to the next door house and our power bills, running bills, they've got a concrete sandwich panel construction, early day concrete sandwich panel, which was probably about 15, 12 years old. And our heating costs are literally a quarter to a fifth of theirs to stay at the same temperature. So pay attention to the detail, pay attention to that insulation and you can significantly reduce the energy load of the buildings that you're doing. [Shane Clarke] So that's, it's pretty thorough. It's excellent. Right, well, actually that brings us to the sort of the informal part of the formal questions. I actually have got some questions coming in from from the attendees. So great, so I'll just share a couple of them with you and then you guys can fight amongst yourselves as to who answers it. We've got a question here. What's the R value achieved then from your total build up? [Justin Wright] Well, this one doesn't have any cold bridging, so I haven't calculated out all the extra layers of plywood and stuff, but we've got the 100 mil endotherm PIR in there. So Mike, you can tell us what's 100 mil, 4.8, 4.9, 5? [Mike Skilton] Yeah, 4.6, 4.6 just for the board. And then you've got to calculate all the other factors that go into that as well. [Justin Wright] Yeah, so there's no cold bridging, so there's no drop down in that value. So traditionally, if you put like a 1.9 or a 2.4 into a wall, that's losing 15-20% and it's dropping down. So this has got no bridging, 4.6 plus. [Shane Clarke] Excellent, and another, you just did touch on it before, Justin, but there's just a question about, obviously we've wrapped the building tight. So there is some sort of, just confirming there is some sort of ventilation to deal with the moisture? [Justin Wright] Sure is, so there's a built-in passive ventilation system. So there's a slow trickle air fan with a grill in it that transfers the heat, the hot air that's going out of the building crosses over through a grill with the cold air coming in and it transfers all the heat. So these are really low cost, low air movement running systems that deal with that moisture and that's part of the, that's integrated into the heat pump air heating system. So yeah. OK. [Shane Clarke] This one I think might be for you, Daniel. We've discussed obviously the efficiency and benefits of having continuous insulation and it's going to have a low energy draw and that's good for the environment, but have you got any information around sort of embodied carbon and bits and pieces like that into your product? [Daniel Gudsell] I think it's a pretty good point, a really good point actually, Shane. Yes, this, one of the questions there I can see is, is this a passive house? The answer's no, it wasn't designed as a passive house. Retrospectively, we are getting Jason Quinn at Sustainable Engineering just to do an analysis on it and it's likely to be a high performance home, whether it meets passive house standard retrospectively or not, we'll get to see. But yes, these sorts of structures are going to be a low energy use. The flip side of that is, well, what about the embodied energy and the materials and is that important? And that's becoming, as we make buildings that are more and more efficient, the embodied energy, embodied carbon and building materials becoming more important. And so wood has got a great story there. We know from an EPD down on New Zealand radio out of pine that it's storing about 700 kgs cubic metre of carbon equivalent and we know that the thermal modification process costs us, costs the product around 100 to 150 kgs cubic metre of carbon equivalent. So we know that this building has around 12 to 15 cubic metres of water in it. It's storing, in the wood alone, it's storing seven or eight tonnes of carbon and that's, you know, that's, we talk about climate change, energy use is one thing, but also embodied carbon and building materials is, I think, something that designers need to consider. [Shane Clarke] Absolutely they should. I've got another one here, just again back to you Daniel about your timber, where does your timber origin and is it sustainably sourced? [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, yeah, it's sourced primarily from the Kaingaroa forest in central North Island around Rotorua. It's all FSC certified. It's a rapidly renewable plantation timber and that rapidly renewable is pretty important, like speed at which a tree grows, faster it grows, more carbon it stores and see products like Siberian larch that come into the country, they're imported all the way from Siberia and those trees grow at a very slow rate and that means they only store something like one tonne of CO2 per year in growth, whereas our fast growing radio out of pine is storing around 20 tonnes of carbon per hectare per year. So FSC certified for sustainability and very fast growing and very useful as a carbon sink. That's important to consider. [Shane Clarke] Yeah, absolutely. There's a question here for Mr Architect, the designer, you might not want to go too close to your secret source, but there's a question here around how you've done your roof and wall junction joining and what do we do about water runoff and water running over the windows and junctions and you might be able to touch on that, you may not be able to. I'll leave it to you. [Justin Wright] It's a question that's commonly asked. Where's the gutter? That's actually part of what we've been trying to do with all that clean line was in short, you can see in that photo at the base of the wall there's a big trough of gravel. So we've got a ground gutter is what we did. It's a timber framed building, timber floor, so it's picked up a long way off the ground and under that gravel is a big drainage channel to capture the water. So it's just a clean line of the water rolling down and that's why using a membrane roof all the way over and down gave us that confidence and we've got kick out little gutter kick out things over the top of the window to divert water away. [Shane Clarke] Excellent, just another quick question. Again, I think it points to more around maintenance, I guess. Is it easy cleanable? Can you can you wash it down? Can you keep away pests and rodents and whatnot that potentially could get in here? [Daniel Gudsell] Yeah, easy enough to answer. The system has been well designed by assembly to the extent that those panels, the branch grain panels are about 900 millimetres wide if I'm correct, Dustin, and they are face fit or they're fixed through the through the cavity batten. So they can actually be easily removed in 900 millimetre prefabricated increments. So we can easily pull those panels off if we need to get in behind the rain screen there. And we can also